Same outfit all day:
Q: And your recollection is that when you saw Mr. Simpson and from the exhibit that we have now labeled 84 and you draw the squiggly line, as it's been called, he was in exactly the same outfit. Correct? A: Yes. Q: And your recollection is that when he was exiting the entrance on Rockingham and going from the entrance, the front entrance to the limo, he was in exactly the same outfit. Correct? MR. PLOTKIN: You mean the entrance to the house? MR. ROBERT BAKER: Yeah. Q: The entrance from the front entrance of the house into the limo to leave, he was in the same outfit. Right? A: That's what I -- I remember this, the dark outfit. Q: Sure. And I take it that your recollection is that it was -- in your mind's eye you can recall this white zipper that went down the front of that outfit. Correct? A: Yes. Q: Okay. And you have a recollection of that when O.J. exited the front door and went towards the limo. True? A: I have more of the image in the driveway, but I remember the outfit.
Q: All right. As I understand your testimony, Mr. Kaelin, you were reasonably certain that after May of 1993 until May of 1994 Nicole was monogamous with O.J. Correct? A: That the marriage was monogamous. That she told me in our conversations that the whole time she was married to him, she never, ever cheated on O.J. during the marriage. Q: Let me go back, and I want to reask my question, or maybe I asked it poorly. A: Okay. Q: Your understanding was in May of 1993, O.J. and Nicole got back together for an attempted reconciliation. And you've testified in this proceeding that between the time that Nicole agreed to get back and wanted to get back with O.J. for a reconciliation, that she was never untrue to O.J. Correct? Never cheated on him. THE WITNESS: I don't remember that part. I don't know. Yeah, I thought that was the time they were going to try to make it work. It was one of those things where -- that I had mentioned one time they had a good relationship. It was a stormy relationship, but Nicole would say she was together with him since 19 and it was like 17 years together, and although they still were friends, and they would go apart, and it was very stormy, and yet I said that was good because they're still in each other's life. And I thought it was kind of like that unconditional thing, that although she said that during the relationship that O.J. cheated, that she still took him back. It was kind of that stormy -- Q: I want to use a time frame here. And if in fact it was your impression that Nicole was not being untrue to O.J. following their reconciliation in May of 1993, at least up to May of 1994, the incidents when Marcus Allen would come over were before May of 1993. Now, when -- between February of 1993 when you first started learning the personal intimate details of Nicole 's life and May of 1993, when did Marcus Allen come over and park his car any place other than in the front of the house? A: There was a trip that O.J. and Nicole took I think to Cabo back then. That would get my memory if I knew the date, because it was before then that Marcus was coming over and seeing Nicole. I think they might have took the trip in April.
So Marcus was maybe coming there in April. I don't know when they took the trip in -- to Cabo, and that was Like -- I think that's when Nicole told him that Marcus was seeing her. I don't know the exact thing, but I think Marcus was coming over in April. Q: And it was in April of 1993 that she indicated to you that she told O.J. about this relationship. And at that time O.J. was coming around the Gretna Green house, was he not? And he was not jealous or angry or at all upset to your knowledge about anything she had done with Marcus Allen. Isn't that true? THE WITNESS: Yes. There was -- can I say something? There was a trip that was took, and she said the first two days of the trip were real tough, but they got better with O.J. I think that was after the Marcus situation.
I don't -- that was -- it was like very tough. There was a fight and she almost came back, she said, but they stuck it out there, and I -- but I -- I think it was in April. That was the Cabo trip.
BY MR. ROBERT BAKER: Basically what I'm asking, Mr. Kaelin, is: What you have heard on the media, whether it be on the radio, on television, what you have read in the news media print, has that tempered your recollection and has altered your testimony from what you previously have given to the Grand Jury -- A: This is -- obviously I have seen some things on TV: I have seen things in print, but with my testimony maybe -- I don't know -- like the degree I can't give but, yeah, I've read certain things that it didn't taint what I said. but certain things did come up that I didn't know before from trial and. . . Q: Now. you testified within the last hour and a half something to the effect, "I don't know because it's been so long ago and there's been so many news stories, that I'm confused " Do you recall your testimony in that regard when you were talking about your movements on June 12th, 1994?
Now, have you read anything about the background of Nicole and O.J. Simpson that has colored your testimony relative to the time period between February of 1993 and May of 1993, if you know? THE WITNESS: I don't know the answer. Q: All right. Fair enough.
Now. do you have a recollection of when you were talking to Nicole in this time frame between February and May of 1993. that she indicated to you that O.J. would be upset about Marcus Allen? A: Yes. It was when Marcus was coming by, those trips before he was going to leave for camp, and she just said that O.J. would be so pissed if he knew Marcus was coming over.
And I went, "Really?" Because I didn't know anything was really even going on and -- but he was parking on a different street. Q: And then you found out later that, of course, O.J. wasn't upset at all about Marcus when Nicole actually told him that she wanted his assistance to end Marcus coming over to the house. Isn't that right? THE WITNESS: I just -- I think so, because I know he got married at her house -- at his house. I didn't know what the situation was with Marcus at all, what was actually going on. but I didn't -- I know that he got married at the house, so I thought everybody was -- BY MR. ROBERT BAKER: Now, you indicated to Mr. Shapiro that O.J. was never upset about Nicole dating other men, did you not? A: At that time, yeah. I think O.J. knew Nicole was seeing other people. Q: He was never upset about that, was he? A: Not that I saw. Q: He never told you he was upset about Nicole dating anybody. Isn't that true? At any time that you were either a guest in Gretna Green or a guest in Rockingham. A: Well, there was a thing with the pushing of buttons that I mentioned that started happening at the Gretna Green -- I think what you're trying to say is, was there any -- was O.J., mad that Nicole was dating others. BY MR. ROBERT BAKER: No, that isn't what I asked at all. I asked you: Did O.J. ever tell you that he was upset that Nicole would date other men? THE WITNESS: Not that I can remember.
BY MR. ROBERT BAKER: Now, relative to Nicole's conversations with you in 1993, you, as I understand it, wanted Nicole and O.J. to get back together. Is that correct?
Kaelin: Yes. Q: And during that period of time she had talked to you about an event that occurred on January 1st, 1989 where there was a claim that O.J. had hit her. Correct?
Kaelin: Yes. Q: And then she had also indicated to you that she believed that she thought O.J. would one day kill her with scissors. Right? A: Yes. Q: Now. did you ever indicate to the Grand Jury or to the lawyers questioning you in the preliminary hearing anything about the conversations with Nicole relative to this thought that she had -- concerning O.J.'s going to kill her with scissors? THE WITNESS: No, I don't believe I was asked that. Q: Are you telling us, Mr. Kaelin, what you wanted to occur was that Nicole Brown Simpson would be reunited with Mr. Simpson who had had a physical altercation with her and, further, that she thought that person was going to kill her with scissors? Is that what you wanted? THE WITNESS: Yes.
BY MR. ROBERT BAKER: Q: All right. Now, in terms of her going out and going out with Cora Fishman and Faye Resnick, did she {NICOLE} express to you any reservations about Faye Resnick?
Kaelin: I think that Faye was just after money a lot. Q: Did she express to you that Faye Resnick was using drugs? THE WITNESS: At what time? Q: At any time in January of '93 to December of '93 when you were having these tea conversations. A: I think she mentioned Faye was doing drugs, had been doing drugs. Q: Was it your understanding that Faye Resnick was doing drugs from January of 1993 through and including the time that you were living there in December of 1993? THE WITNESS: I don't know that. Q: Did Nicole Brown Simpson suggest to you that Cora Fishman would not go out with Faye Resnick because Faye Resnick was doing drugs? A: I think it was that Cora just didn't like Faye. It could have been that, I don't know, but they didn't get along.
ROBERT BAKER: Now. I want to jump for a moment to June 13th, 1994. Now. you were sound asleep in your bed in the early morning hours. Correct? A: Yeah, tossing and turning. Q: And at that point you heard a knock on the door, did you not, on your door? At approximately what time was that? A: Approximately, I think. 5:30 a.m. Q: All right. And you got up and opened the door. Did you not? A: Yes. I did. Q: Did you normally sleep with that door locked. The one that went out to the pool? And next to your room there's an office. Correct? A: Yes. Q: And if you were facing the bed, the office would be to the right or the north. True? Or the west, I guess. A: It would be to my left. It would be going west. Correct. Q: I meant if you're standing there -- And I think he got it wrong, too. If you are standing looking at the bed from the foot of the bed, the office would be to the right or closest to the main house. Correct? A: Correct. Q: And over the night stand on the left side of the bed is an air conditioner. True? A: Correct. Q: And there are two doors that have the same covering as the wall that close over that air conditioner. Isn't that true? A: I'm pretty sure, yes. Q: Now, in the room where you resided, you got up at approximately 5:30 and opened the door to the patio/pool area and let in the police officers who were there. True? And who were the police officers who were there at 5:30 in the morning, approximately?
Kaelin: I believe Vannatter and Fuhrman and-- Q: So there were four officers then that came into your room? A: I think only one came into my room.
I think the first one was Phillips, quick; then Fuhrman. Q: All right. Now, when Phillips came into the room, the other three officers were just outside the door? Were they on the elevated portion of the patio or below in the entrance area? A: What I remember. I believe two were elevated and two were down. Q: The patio that comes off of the main house comes up to an area right adjacent to the area where you lived in, and let's call that the bungalow. Fair enough? Your area of living, where you and Arnelle lived, was the bungalow? All right. And you go down steps to get into the door of your entrance. And you can go either in your entrance or an entrance into the office. Can you not? A: One door would lead right to my room. Then you could go make a right into the office. Q: And then there are some stairs that go up into the main house. True? All right. Now, all four officers were down--Strike that. Two officers were up on the patio area, and two officers were down in front of the door. Is that true? A: Best of my memory. yes. Q: And I take it the two officers that were down in front of your room were Phillips and Fuhrman. Were they in uniform? A: In suits. In dress suits. Q: All right. And when Phillips came into the room, did he show you a badge? A: No. Q: What did he tell you? A: They were the police. Q: Did they tell you they were Los Angeles Police Department? A: I think they just said "Police." I don't know if they said "Los Angeles." I think, "Who lives here? Who else lives here?" I don't know what exact dialogue happened first, but who lived here. Who I was. Q: Had--when he was asking you these questions, was Fuhrman in the room? A: I don't think so. I think Fuhrman came into my room after they went out and two of them knocked on Arnelle's door. Then I think Fuhrman came when they said. "Who else lives here?" and I think I pointed to her room. Q: All right. Now, while Phillips is asking you these questions, is it your recollection that he was alone in your room? A: No. There were--always were two and two. I was never left alone until Fuhrman came in, but they were still outside. I was never--they were always in proximity to me. Q: When Phillips came into your room at approximately 5:30, how many steps or how many feet did he come into your room? A: Probably two. Q: Which two went to Arnelle's room, if you know? A: Okay. I think Fuhrman--it was Phillips, and I believe they went to Arnelle's room, , two of them, and then-- I think Vannatter and Lange. Q: By that time had Fuhrman come into your room? A: No. I was waiting for them--for Arnelle to answer the door. Then I believe after she got her door and was talking to them, Fuhrman came in and talked to me. Q: All right. When Fuhrman came and talked to you, had Phillips remained in the room the whole time? A: I don't think so. He could have been outside. He could have been outside the door but Fuhrman was in my room giving me a test. I believe it was Fuhrman . Q: All right. Now. between the time that you opened the door at approximately 5:30 and the time Fuhrman had gone apparently to Arnelle's room and come back to your room, approximately how much time had elapsed? A: I don't know if Fuhrman went to her room. I thought it was Vannatter and Lange, I said. I believe it was--I think Fuhrman and Lange were with me -- Fuhrman and Phillips with me, and I know at one point I believe it was Fuhrman came in my room and looked at my clothes and did his thing. I said "Go ahead."
ROBERT BAKER: I understand it's almost two years ago, but I want to try to go back in your mind and try to recall. After you had this conversation with Phillips and he asked you about who lived there and you told him you lived there and Arnelle lived there -- correct? And did you tell him that anybody else lived there?
Kaelin: I believe--I think I said it was OJ.'s house, and I said, "Did the plane crash?" And I thought something was -- something happened to O.J. I think I said that. I said, "Did the plane crash?" They didn't say anything. I said, "What happened? What's this about?" Q: Did you get an answer? A: No. Q: Now, with you talking to Phillips, that conversation only took approximately a minute or so? A: I think so. Q: And then Lange and Vannatter go down to Arnelle's door, which is about 20 feet from your door. And did you hear any of the conversation that Vannatter and Lange had with Arnelle? A: I don't. I remember them -- it just seemed like they were knocking on her door for a while; I remember that pounding and pounding and pounding. She never was answering the door and then she got the door. I think she might have said, "What's this about?" I don't remember. Q: And how long was that period of time {that the two officers were at her door}? Just approximately. Was it ten minutes? Was it five minutes? Three minutes? A: Maybe three to five. Q: All right. And then did Vannatter and Lange come back to your room? A: I believe after Fuhrman. I think everybody left together into the house. Q: Did Vannatter and Lange come back from Arnelle's room with Arnelle? A: I don't think so. They went to my doorway up on the top, is where I saw them next. Q: All right. Was Arnelle with them at that time? A: I believe so, yes. Q: Did she have a robe or something on? A: I think so. BY MR. ROBERT BAKER: When Fuhrman was administering this test to you, was Phillips in the room? A: I thought they were all out on that -- on my door. I thought it already possibly they were -- one on the bottom and two on top with Arnelle at that time. Q: Where was Phillips during the time that Vannatter and Lange were down at Arnelle's? Was he in your room the whole time? A: I believe -- there is a screen in my door. He stayed at the doorway when the door was shut, while Fuhrman was doing that. The other two had gotten Arnelle and then came back after those minutes and waited up on top there, and I thought that was for them -- for everybody to go outside now. Q: All right. So Phillips had actually exited the screen door, and Fuhrman had come into your room? A: I believe so, yes. Q: And when Fuhrman came into the room, what did he say to you? A: He asked me what I wore that night. I showed him everything that I wore, and he -- I believe they were boots and jeans, and I don't know what shirt, and it was on the chair and --the chair that would be in the room. I usually hung them on a chair. And I told him about the night something -- I believe I told him about the noise I heard. Q: And this is still while you were in the room? A: I was talking a lot. I don't know everything I said. I was very fast-paced talking. And at some point he did that thing -- I don't know if it was a pen or with a pencil -- that test, and I think that was it. Q: All right. Did Fuhrman inspect your boots? Did he go over and pick up the boots and look at the soles? A: Yes. They were like a cheap kind of Doc Martens--not Doc Martens, but like a cheaper brand. {the soles were} Plastic. Rubber. I think I have one of them. When there was a move a lot of my stuff wasn't ever accounted for. Q: Did those boots have similar patterns to the footprints that you became aware of at Bundy? Would you preserve the boot that you presently have of that set? Did you keep that boot? A: I think so. Q:But will you keep that boot? Till I get a subpoena on that boot. A: Sure. I think I have -- I don't know if I have it or not, but I will find out. Q: Okay. And what did he do after he administered this test? A: I think we all went outside. Q: Was that the first time you had left the room after you had been awoken at approximately 5:30 in the morning on the morning of the 13th? A: Yes. Q: And when you left the room, did Fuhrman leave with you? A: I think so. I think we all left. I think we all ended up in the house together. Q: All right. Now, do you have an estimate as to how long this took from the time that you heard the knock on the door until the time that you all believe you left the room and went into the main house? A: I don't know. Within an hour. I don't know exactly the time we went to the house. Q: Now, when you interviewed with Marc Eliot, you indicated to him that you left your room and went to the main house with Vannatter, and Fuhrman stayed back in your room. Do you have a recollection of that? A: I don't. [MR. ROBERT BAKER: The date of the transcription {from DA's Office} was complete on April 2, 1992. The date of the interview was 12-27-94. page 6 starting at line 2,] [MR. PETROCELLI: Interview between Kato and Marc Eliot? ] Q: Now, does that refresh your recollection that you went off to the main house with Vannatter, and Fuhrman stayed behind in your room? Fuhrman. A: I don't know. I just know going into the house. I cannot say for sure right now. Q: I take it that your recollection was better in December of '94 relative to the events of June of '94 than it is now in February of '96. Now, do you have a recollection that Fuhrman stayed be hind and was in your room by himself the morning of June 13th, 1994? A: He could have been. I do not know. ******************************************************** Q: In terms of your initial discussions in the room when you asked did the flight go down, did anyone ask you about the flight that Mr. Simpson was on? A: I think so. I think I mentioned-- like I said--I was talking so fast. I' m sure I said. "Did OJ.'s plane crash?" And I think they might have said something. I said he was in Chicago and I think I mentioned that he was in some Hertz thing. Q: Did you ever indicate anything other than the fact that he had gone on a scheduled flight to-- -- Fuhrman and Vannatter and Phillips and Lange? A: I might have said American Air Lines. Q: All right. But you certainly didn't indicate that he had gone on anything other than a scheduled flight to Chicago, did you? THE WITNESS: I don't know. I think I said red eye. I might have said a red eye flight. I don't know. ****** FUHRMAN KNOWS about flight ********* Q: Mr. Kaelin, I take it that after you heard this pounding on the door at approximately 5:30 in the morning on the morning of June 13, 1994, you were somewhat in shock. Is that true?
And when you heard that it was the police, you were frightened, were you not?
And I take it further that what you did was you wanted to explain to the police, including Mr. Phillips and Mr. Fuhrman, as much as possible what happened the evening before. Isn't that true?
And while you were still in your room and before you had gone into the main house, you were talking rapidly to Detectives Fuhrman and Phillips, were you not?
And did you--Strike that. I take it that you explained to them not only the thumps, but the interrelationship that you had had with Mr. Simpson both before and after the recital. Correct? A: I think that's when I sat with Vannatter, and he was asking me about--he sat down, taking notes. I don t know if I said it in the initial--I was talking a lot; I can tell you that. I was.. Q: Okay. Whatever they were knocking on your door for at 5:30 in the morning, you wanted to make sure you weren't in any criminal difficulty, and you explained everything you could to them as rapidly as you could. True? A: Yes. ROBERT BAKER: Now, when you were discussing with the detectives. were you directing your--Strike that. Was it Phillips or Fuhrman who was questioning you while you were still in your room and before you went to the house? A: They both, I think, talked to me,
But it was--the last person I talked to I believe was Fuhrman. Q: And as I understand it, Phillips was not in the room when this follow-the-flashlight or finger test was administered. Correct? A: I think he was at the screen door on the outside. Q: Do you have a recollection of indicating to Fuhrman about the thumps that you had heard the previous evening? A: I thought I might have told him about the thumps I heard. Q: And you also had this conversation at some time shortly after 5:30 that Mr. Simpson was--had taken an airplane to Chicago. Correct? A: I had said that, I believe. Q: So as far as you knew, Mr. Fuhrman certainly knew that O.J. Simpson was not on the property after he talked to you. Correct? A: Yes. ******* Fuhrman definately knows Simpson Gone ****** Q: And it's also true, is it not. that you explained to him that you and O.J. had discussed the thumps before O.J. got in the limousine? A: That I had told him about the noise, just told him I heard noises last night. I don't think I mentioned OJ.'s name with the noises. Q: All right. That was when you were talking to Mr. Vannatter when you were up in the bar in the main house? A: I believe so. ************************* Q: All right. What exactly did you tell Detective Fuhrman about the noises you had heard? A: Well, I think it was in my room. and I was talking first of all of the plane crash, if there was a plane crash. I said. "Oh. I think it was a weird night, anyways. I heard these thumps. I don't know if it's important or not, but my picture moved." So I think I pointed to my picture, and I think he was looking around the room, and it was sort of me talking, him listening, and then I felt as if he would do the talking then, that I was-- that he wanted me to shut up, and I --he was gonna ask me questions. Q: Now, at that time when you were alone in your room with Mr. Fuhrman, did he ask you where the thumps had come from? A: I think I just pointed. I think I pointed right to the back wall. Q: Did you point to the back wall directly behind your bed, or did you point to the back wall over near the air conditioner? A: I guess it's about that much. I think I just pointed, though, I just said the back wall. I don't even know if I looked when I pointed. I just said, "Oh, I heard this noise back there." Q: All right. Now, you indicated to Detective Fuhrman that a picture had moved. Is that correct? And did you indicate how many thumps there were to Detective Fuhrman? A: I don't know if I said there were three. I think I just said the noises, I heard a noise. I don't know if "thump" was even the word. Q: All right. Did you motion to what picture had moved? What picture had moved, Mr. Kaelin? A: The picture that would have been over the phone, where the phone was. ROBERT BAKER: And as you faced the bed, again looking at the bed from standing in front of it, the phone was on the right night stand, was it not? Now, where had those thumps come from the night before in relationship to the air conditioner as contrasted to the picture that you say may have moved? THE WITNESS: I thought. the thumps occurred behind my--the bed--headboard of the bed. Q: Again, let me just see if I can--so that we have a frame of reference, what I would like you to do is to tell us where those noises came from in your best recollection using looking at your bed from the foot of the bed facing the bed, so that the air conditioner would be on the left, the phone and night stand would be on the right, and the picture you say would be on the right, and then how far from the ceiling down and how far from the middle of the headboard left or right. So it would be about at the height of the headboard and to the left side of the bed. Correct? A: Yeah. It was like a beginning noise and an ending noise, it had, and they are all within a foot of each other. I would think (Indicating). ***** Cat theory down the tubes ***** Q: And that would be to your best recollection: About five feet away from the air conditioner? And the noise that you heard, were there three noises? A: I thought in my head there were three noises, like a continued (Sounds). Q: At the Grand Jury hearing you hit the table three times to demonstrate the noises that you heard. And you did it with approximately the same velocity, so it produced the same noise every time, did you not, at the Grand Jury? And you did exactly the same thing when you testified in the criminal trial. Is that true? And you did the same thing in the preliminary hearing, did you not? And so your recollection is essentially there were three noises of equal velocity, producing an equal amount of sound. The three sounds that you heard were approximately of the same volume. Is that true? A: Yeah. I didn't know back then that I was able to move around. I think that's what made me--they said, ''Mr. Kaelin, go and show us with your hand. They didn't say, "Mr. Kaelin, get up." So I just listened to what they said. Q: All right. Now, was it your--is it your recollection that the sound stayed in a static location? THE WITNESS: Yes. ROBERT BAKER: Where you've drawn the "X" on this exhibit, that's where the noise to the best of your recollection came from. All three of the noises came from where the X is. Correct? A: Within a foot, I'd say. Q: All right. And is it your testimony then that the picture moved when you heard those noises? And the picture would be about what, five to six feet away from the-- where the "X" is drawn on the exhibit? So the picture moved five to six feet away. Correct? A: Yes. it did. Q: And was there more than one picture on the south wall of your room in June of 1994? A: I think so. I think they're on both sides, pictures. Q: And the picture on the left night stand didn't move at all? A: Well, my attention went to this one because I saw and heard it move. Q: So you were lying, as I understand it, on the bed and in a position with your back onto the bed and your head up at the pillow end. And you were talking on the telephone. And the picture was over to your left and above you. And there is a light there on the night stand that partially obliterates your vision of the picture, true, from the position you were lying in? A: It's above the lamp, the picture. Q: So that the lamp impedes your ability to see the picture. True? A: No, I don't think--I mean, I could see the picture if I turned-- like right there, here's the lamp (Indicating). The picture would be right here (Indicating) Q: Okay. And is it your testimony that the lower portion of the picture moved six inches from left to right, as you faced the bed again? A: Yeah, I can't tell you inches, but it moved. The picture moved. I believe it moved that way (Indicating). Q: And your description would be the lower left corner of the picture, again as you're facing the bed, would move in a--down towards the floor, and the upper right-hand portion of the picture would move up towards the ceiling. And do you have an estimate as to how many inches that moved? A: Between five inches and ten inches. Q: All right. Now, did you straighten the picture out? A: I don't think so. Q: So the next morning when the police came in at 5:30 and there-in-after the picture would have been in the same position. Correct? A: If I didn't straighten it. I don't know if I did or not, but it would have been. Q: Did you tell ,Mr. Fuhrman on the morning of June 13th that the picture had moved this five to ten inches? A: I don't remember. Q: All right. Now, we're going to direct your attention, if I may, to-- again to June 13th of 1994. After you had this pencil or flashlight test with Mr. Fuhrman, then did you exit the room? Did Mr. Fuhrman exit behind you, that is, was he the last person out of your room? A: He could have been. I don't know for sure, but he could have been. Q: All right. And then is it your testimony that you then went into the main house?
Through the closest door to the main house, that is. up on the patio and the left door that we have talked about that you marked the other day?
Now, you had set the alarm the night previous, had you not? There is no pad on that door. Isn't that correct? A: I'm pretty sure there's not. Q: How did you people get in with- out setting off the alarm if you went in that door, as you previously testified? THE WITNESS: Arnelle had a key: that's all I know. I didn't have anything to do with it. I just walked--followed them. Q: And in any event, your recollection is nobody went around the house and did anything with any of the pads. What happened was that all six of you, you, Arnelle and the four detectives, went in the door that would be to enter into the den area of the house. Correct? THE WITNESS: I went through that door. That's what I remember. Q: All right. In any event, when you went through that door, was Lange, Phillips, Fuhrman and Vannatter with you and Arnelle going through that door? A: As far as I remember, I think so. Q: Now, you're familiar with the bar area as you go through that door and into Mr. Simpson's house. And you sat down at that bar area, did you not. after you entered the house? A: I don't know if that was my first move or not. I don't know if we went to the kitchen or if they sat me down at the bar area, but, yeah, I was at the bar area at some point. ROBERT BAKER: Q: "Question: When you entered the house, did you enter before or after Detective Fuhrman? "Answer: I think it was before. "Question: Okay. You were ahead of him? "Answer: I was ahead of him. "Question: And when you entered the house, what area did you go to? "Answer: I--when you go into that door, there is a bar area. I went into the bar area. "You went unto the bar area? "Answer: Yes. "Question: And what did you do at the bar area? "Answer: They asked me to have a seat there. "Question: Detective Fuhrman? "Answer: I believe so. "Question: So you sat in the bar area, did you? "Answer: Yes. "Question: Then what happened? "Answer: Well, I sat at one of the stools at the bar, and then Detective Vannatter sat next to me. "Answer" -- or "Question" -- pardon me--"Okay. Now, after you sat down in the bar area, where did Detective Fuhrman go? Did he stay n with you? "Answer: No. "Question: Did he leave? "Answer: He wasn't in the room with me. "Question: Okay, Did he leave after you sat at the bar? "Answer: Yeah, he was in the room, so he left." Now, is that your best recollection as to what happened after you got inside the door? A: Yeah. I was in the kitchen area, too. I can't give you exact times, but I know I sat down with Vannatter at that--what that said. what you just read-- --and that did happen. I know at one point they wanted to see if there were keys to the Bronco, so I don't know if that happened before or after, But I did sit at the bar with Vannatter and he questioned me. ****** :-) BAKER == FIRST Q: Now, when you sat down at the bar with Vannatter, that was the first time you had had any conversation at all with Vannatter. Is that correct? A: I believe so, yes. Q: And when you talked to Vannatter, did he I have a notepad? A: I think so. Q: Okay. In terms of your conversation with Vannatter, tell me everything that you recall him asking you and you telling him. A: Boy. I think we talked about if I knew Nicole, if--my events of the night, what all happened, to go over the events of the night, mentioning the noises behind the bed. I think he asked me what I did there, if I worked there on the -- Rockingham, if I knew when O.J. was coming back, I think. I think questions about O.J., the flight. I think it was -- whatever routines they--questioning, it was --I can't remember exactly what they were . Q: Do you recall telling Vannatter that O.J Simpson had a flight. and he had left Los Angeles the night previously. And did you tell him that he had been on American Airlines and he was going from LAX to Chicago? And did you tell him he was going to play in a Hertz tournament on Monday? A: I think I just said he had a Hertz thing going on. Q: All right. And with regards to your telling Vannatter of the events of the night, did you tell Vannatter the events really of the day of June 12th, 1994, the conversations you had had with Mr. Simpson? {don't know} You certainly told him about the trip that you had with Mr. Simpson to McDonald's, did you not? A: I think so. yeah. I think I was talking about the last--the night, what happened on that night. Q: And he also asked you about Mr. Simpson's mood on the evening of the 12th didn't he? You indicated to Mr. Vannatter that Mr. Simpson was not anxious, was not depressed, was in a usual mood, did you not? And you said the only thing that you noticed about Mr. Simpson the evening of June 12th 1994 was the fact that he was tired. Isn't that true? A: I think so, saying that he was tired. I don't know if they asked me if he had a cut on his hand or not, if I noticed cut. It could have been. I don't know for sure. Q: Okay. Well, certainly you hadn't seen a cut on his hand, had you? A: No. Q: All right. And in terms of the conversation with Mr. Vannatter, do you know approximately how long that took? A: Sitting with Vannatter, maybe 15, 20 minutes. I can't be specific exactly on the time. ************* Q: When was the next time after you were awoken at approximately 5:30 in the morning you have a clear recollection of what time it was on June 13th, 1994 in the morning? A: The kids came over, Sydney and Justin. It might have been like 7:15 the kids came by, I think. I can't be specific on time, I just know the events that happened. ************ Q: All right. Now, after you sat down with Detective Vannatter and you went through the events that you've related to us, what did you then do, Mr. Kaelin? A: I think I was in the kitchen area, and I might have been with Justin and Sydney and kind of watching them, and also they asked if there were an extra set of keys to the Bronco, and I remember helping look for those. THE WITNESS: At one point I know Arnelle got on the phone. I don't know what time that was, I thought I was in the bar area when I heard her crying. Q: And before you were in the kitchen area, had Detective Vannatter, Phillips, Lange or Fuhrman told you that Nicole had been murdered? A: I don't think it was until Arnelle was screaming. She was in the kitchen. I was at the bar area still. I thought she came--I can't get it straight. I think she came unto the bar area and was crying, and that's when they said. I believe. that Nicole had been murdered. Q: All right. Now, prior to that time when you walked into the main house with the detectives, had you seen where Arnelle had gone? A: I think she went to the kitchen. ****** BAKER THINKS FUHRMAN USED KAELIN'S BOOT ******* Q: Now, did Detective Fuhrman when he left your room take a boot or more than one boot or any of your clothing? A: Not that I saw, no. Q: All right. Now, after your discussion with Vannatter and you went into the kitchen, did you ever again see all of the four detectives together? A: I think I saw them all in the kitchen while they were looking for Bronco keys. I thought all four were together then. Q: And did they ever find any Bronco keys? A: Not that I'm aware of, because I --they asked me to leave the street (sic) then. They escorted me to the street then. I think it was Lange and Vannatter. Q: And when you were escorted to the street, do you know approximately what time that was? A: Approximately I think about 7:30. Q: All right. Now, between the time that you left your bungalow and you were escorted to the street, the time period of approximately two hours, did any police officer ask you to give them a tour of the house? A: No. Q: Did they point out to you any blood spots or what they purported to be blood spots on the morning of June 13th, 1994? A: On the escort out when I was walking out, they said. "Watch out for the blood." Q: All right. And where did they point to the blood when they escorted you out? A: It was by the foyer, the front door entrance, walking out. Q: All right. And how far was it from the door to the area they showed you where there were blood spots? A: Well, what happened when I was walking, they said, "Watch the blood spots," so I went "Huh," looked down and there was drops. So there were like drops of blood. Well, I saw--I don't know the number, I saw--I can't give a number. Three, four, just went "Oh. " and I took my step and I went outside. Q: All right. And you believe you saw one blood drop in the entrance. {On the outside} And do you have a recollection as to approximately how far out the front door that was? A: I thought it was almost right out of the front door. By a--two feet. Q: Did they have any markings, like pieces of tape, to direct your attention to it, or did you just look down and see a spot that you associated with their remark that "Look out for the blood spots"? A: I thought there was a marking outside. In my memory, I thought there was a tape. Q: You didn't see any tapes in the foyer when you exited. Correct? A: I don't think so, no. Q: The blood spot that you saw approximately two feet out the entrance. how big was it? A: In my mind, I think it was like a nickel.
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