Comments from on the Raku interview

From: Scarlet <scarlet@mbox301.swipnet.se> | Block address To: "'SocForSlashDiversity@onelist.com'" <SocForSlashDiversity@onelist.com> Date: Thu, 12 Aug 1999 12:38:03 -0000 Reply-to: SocForSlashDiversity@onelist.com Subject: Re: [SocForSlashDiversity] An Interview With Raku

August 12, 1999

From: Scarlet <scarlet@mbox301.swipnet.se>

Karmen and raku,

Thanks for a delightful and interesting interview. I'm a big fan of raku, and especially love "The Learning Curve".

Your conversation made me want to express a few thoughts:

>KG: What do you feel is the future of K/S?

>R: I believe they eventually enroll in an assisted-care facility and learn macrame.

I have lately begun to wonder if the genre is reaching its end because it has been so well explored, but we do seem to keep getting new writers (like me, for one). So maybe I'm too pessimistic.

Just my 2 cents: K/S is a very powerful myth. I have the impression that new K/S writers, and fans, arrive every day. Some of them stay in that particular fandom, some of us discover all the other forms of slash and like what we see. I think K/S will be around for a considerable time.

>KG: Me, I'm just a webizen so I know nothing of the printzine community, except for a brush or two with certain members. What is with those people? Are they really as uptight, narrow minded, hypercritical/sensitive and condescending as they seem or am I really just too fucked up to see their good points?

Karmen, I love you and everything, but I think you may be just a little fucked up in this area. (Did that come out right? Well, I never said English was my native tongue.) I'm no expert on printzines either, but the way I see it, printzines and web slash are two sides of one wonderful golden coin. Both mediums (medias? media? Latin never was my native tongue, either) have their advantages and disadvantages.

As for 'those people', some writers write for both web and print, Greywolf and Kaki, for instance. And a lot of fans read slash in any form they can have it, like myself.

And then I would like to propose the next toast to fanfic, in all its infinite diversity and creativity.

Thanks again. I'm looking very much forward to read the other interviews.

Scarlet

(Oh, and Karmen, you made *excellent* use of the black robe on Spock! I'm still shivering!)

(List sibs: That's in part 12 of "After The Rescue". Don't miss it.)

Date: Thu, 12 Aug 1999 20:20:42 EDT To: SocForSlashDiversity@onelist.com Reply-to: SocForSlashDiversity@onelist.com Subject: Re: [SocForSlashDiversity] An Interview With Raku

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From: Dunyazad9@aol.com

Loved the interview with raku. As far as I'm concerned, "The Learning Curve" is one of the most significant works ever in Trek fiction, maybe in any fan fiction. Aside from the ingenious use of the hypertext format, it is a powerful, powerful story, and superbly written. Among its many wonderful qualities I appreciated the opening dialogue, which drew me raptly into the story. I'm a sucker for dialogue that treats the characters as the intelligent, sophisticated, worldly (galaxy-ly?) guys that they are.

And I'm glad Karmen Ghia picked up on raku's use of the sonnet "Batter My Heart" (written by Donne after he took holy orders and became Dean of St. Paul's Cathedral), to bring out the depth and power of Kirk's need for Spock's strength:

> It's a sonnet by Donne you're thinking about. Congratulations--you're the only one who's mentioned to me they saw anything rape-like about that scene. I wanted to set it up as a kind of parallel, or prelude, or whatever you want to call it, to what comes toward the end if you take that path.

That particular poem is very important to me--I even keep a copy of it in my office. I thought it was a great choice of Kirk's for their k'lin.

LL&P,

Judith

Date: Thu, 12 Aug 1999 21:44:10 EDT To: SocForSlashDiversity@onelist.com Reply-to: SocForSlashDiversity@onelist.com Subject: Re: [SocForSlashDiversity] An Interview With Raku

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From: Dunyazad9@aol.com

In a message dated 8/12/99 5:45:22 AM EST, scarlet@mbox301.swipnet.se writes:

> As for 'those people', some writers write for both web and print, Greywolf and Kaki, for instance.

Something tells me Karmen did not have Greywolf and Kaki in mind when she wrote about printfen who are narrow-minded, but in any case, GW and Kaki both came into fandom though the net. Greywolf has a letter in the current issue of the K/S Press addressing the recent attacks there on the net and netizens. Like everything GW writes, it is most articulate and a heartfelt plea to printfen to abide by IDIC.

The sad fact is that some (certainly not all, indeed far from all) printfen do seem to feel very threatened by the net. It has been very frustrating to read the unending expression of fears that at times seem downright irrational. Frustrating, too, are the vocal contingent of printfen who insist that it isn't K/S unless it's TupperTrek (what netizens call TupperTrek, that is). And the censorship that netfen have experienced in the printfan newsletter .... but don't let me get started.

And a lot of fans read slash in any form they can have it, like myself.

I do too--I've been buying and reading printzines since 1978, and I have no plans to stop any time soon. I generally buy all the K/S that appears in zines nowadays, whether I actually read it or not (frankly, not all of it is readable, IMHO).

> My encounters with the printzine community have been interesting, enlightening and stimulating, even if I don't agree with everybody on everything. I would like to quote one of my favorite slash writers, Karmen Ghia, in "After The Rescue": "Let's drink to love, in all its infinite diversity and creativity."

Amen to that. I believe that *most* printfen and netfen have much more in common than not. I just wish that *all* printfen could see the wisdom in that, and that the small but vociferous contingent that seems so antagonistic to the net could try to get beyond their fear of netizens in all their diversity and vitality.

Judith

Date: Thu, 12 Aug 1999 22:33:48 EDT To: SocForSlashDiversity@onelist.com Reply-to: SocForSlashDiversity@onelist.com Subject: Re: [SocForSlashDiversity] An Interview With Raku

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From: Raku2u@aol.com

In a message dated 99-08-12 06:45:30 EDT, scarlet@mbox301.swipnet.se writes:

<< Thanks again. I'm looking very much forward to read the other interviews. >

I'm not sure what the etiquette is for these interviews, Scarlet, since I'm first out the door, but let me say thanks for your kind comments on my work.

I too am looking forward to the other interviews. I think Karmen is on to a good idea here, and I'm very glad she's archiving them. I bet folks will be interested to see some of the points she's raising well after the "interview" happens.

best, raku

Date: Thu, 12 Aug 1999 22:17:52 -0700 (PDT) From: Karmen Ghia <stormal@yahoo.com> | Block address To: SocForSlashDiversity@onelist.com Reply-to: SocForSlashDiversity@onelist.com Subject: Re: [SocForSlashDiversity] An Interview With Raku

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From: Karmen Ghia <stormal@yahoo.com>

> came into fandom though the net. Greywolf has a letter in the current issue of the K/S Press addressing the recent attacks there on the net and netizens. Like everything GW writes, it is most articulate and a heartfelt plea to printfen to abide by IDIC.

I'm contacting GW to see if he'll let me post a copy of this letter to SSD (he's not a sub, can you imagine!). I might have to use my charm. (Shudder.)

> The sad fact is that some (certainly not all, indeed far from all) printfen do seem to feel very threatened by the net.

It's been seriously interesting to read the responses to this question in the interviews. One point I think Killa brought up (d'ya know she got into fanfic on the net? I thought she was PZ, like, totally) is that fanfic has exploded on the net. Part of this, someone else said (Skaz?), is because it is safe to post on the net: no cost, no fuss, no meeting people at cons, no getting newsprint all over your hands, etc.

I believe Scarlet is right: K/S will endure, it is the romance novel of the genre and lots and lots of folks love it. What will happen to the PZ scene is anybody's guess. I was once told that zines will endure because of the artwork. This might be true but I dunno. After all, I'm just a fucked up webizen and reveling in it.

By the way, Raku, are your stories in zines? You waded into to all this on the net, right?

>And the censorship that netfen have experienced in the printfan newsletter

I am dubious of anything that sets up to arbitrate or filter another's experience. That is the glamour of the web: you're pretty much on your own once you hit that send button.

And a lot of fans read slash in any form they can have it, like myself. I do too--I've been buying and reading printzines since 1978, and I have no plans to stop any time soon. I generally buy all the K/S that appears in zines nowadays, whether I actually read it or not (frankly, not all of it is readable, IMHO).

What about the art? I've only seen art on the net and was left cold and in one zine, Wanna Buy a Fanzine, which knocked me out. But I'm just a etc.

My encounters with the printzine community have been interesting, enlightening and stimulating, even if I don't agree with everybody on everything. I would like to quote one of my favourite slash writers, Karmen Ghia in "After The Rescue": "Let's drink to love, in all its infinite diversity and creativity." Amen to that. I believe that *most* printfen and netfen have much more in common than not. I just wish that *all* printfen could see the wisdom in that, and that the small but vociferous contingent that seems so antagonistic to the net could try to get beyond their fear of netizens in all their diversity and vitality.

Yes, amen to that, too.

Karmen

Scarlet, you're very cool to quote ATR. I am working on my understanding of printzineolandia but it could take awhile. You know how fucked up I am. <smiling and laughing and typing away> If there is ever a con in LA, I might go and do some constructive lurking. KG

Date: Fri, 13 Aug 1999 00:43:05 -0700 (PDT) From: Karmen Ghia <stormal@yahoo.com> | Block address To: SocForSlashDiversity@onelist.com Reply-to: SocForSlashDiversity@onelist.com Subject: Re: [SocForSlashDiversity] Net vs. print (Was re: An Interview With Raku)

From: Karmen Ghia <stormal@yahoo.com>

I'm trying to get Greywolf's letter to the K/S Press to see what he says. He's usually a voice of reason in these things and I'd love to know what he has writ.

Karmen

Date: Fri, 13 Aug 1999 09:01:55 -0000 Reply-to: SocForSlashDiversity@onelist.com Subject: [SocForSlashDiversity] Net vs. print (Was re: An Interview With Raku)

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From: Scarlet <scarlet@mbox301.swipnet.se>

Judith,

You obviously know what you are talking about and your posts are always very interesting. Thanks for shedding more light on the printzine world.

Karmen wrote:

> What about the art? I've only seen art on the net and was left cold and in one zine, Wanna Buy a Fanzine, which knocked me out. But I'm just a etc.

Scarlet: I have only one printzine in my possession (which shows what kind of an expert I am in these matters) and that's Beyond Dreams No. 1. I think the cover alone, by Shelley Butler, was worth the money. The rest of the art, however, is less impressive, IMHO.

> Scarlet, you're very cool to quote ATR. I am working on my understanding of printzineolandia but it could take awhile. You know how fucked up I am. <smiling and laughing and typing away> If there is ever a con in LA, I might go and do some constructive lurking. KG

Scarlet: I guess I'm an equally fucked up Gandhi wannabee. I get uneasy when I think somebody is being bad-mouthed. But if some of the fundamentalists of the Gutenbergian persuasion are really as intolerant as some people say, maybe it deserves to be said out loud.

Scarlet of the reformed K/S liberal church

Date: Fri, 13 Aug 1999 08:15:21 -0700 (PDT) From: Karmen Ghia <stormal@yahoo.com> Subject: Re: Net vs. print (Was re: An Interview With Raku)

--- Karmen Ghia <stormal@yahoo.com> wrote:

From: Karmen Ghia <stormal@yahoo.com>

I'm trying to get Greywolf's letter to the K/S Press to see what he says. Well, I couldn't get the letter from GW. He wrote that the K/S Press would not be very happy with him if he gave it to me to post and I see his point.

However, if someone *has* the GW letter and wants to post it... that's another matter entirely.

Karmen

Date: Fri, 13 Aug 1999 08:55:30 PDT From: "Skazi netilsky" <skazi90@hotmail.com> Subject: Re: An Interview With Raku

>I believe Scarlet is right: K/S will endure, it isthe romance novel of the genre and lots and lots offolks love it. What will happen to the PZ scene isanybody's guess. I was once told that zines willendure because of the artwork. This might be true butI dunno. Afterall, I'm just a fucked up webizen andreveling in it.What about the art? I've only seen art on the net andwas left cold and in one zine, Wanna Buy a Fanzine,which knocked me out. But I'm just a etc.

The stuff you've seen in Wanna Buy is not representative of the majority of the artwork out there. As with everything else, 90% of the total is crap.

I'm dubious about the future of beautifully illustrated 'zines like "Peristroika" or Marty Siegrist and Jean Kluge's ... Oh, hell, can't remember the title even though it's one of my all time favorites... thier Data and Tasha 'zine. These are expensive and time consuming to produce. The artist usually ends up losing money (and sanity) on the deal. And although these lovely little erotic equivilents of the Guttenburg Bible are greatly prized by those who collect them, they don't generally sell as well as cheaper, fatter, though uglier volumes. As I heard many times over my career as a 'zine artist, most people don't buy 'zines for the artwork.

The best artists can make more money selling prints. Consumers now can get stories in bulk on the net virtually for free. I'm sure there will always be artistic labors of love produced, but if the future of printzines rests on illustration, it's doomed in my opinion.

Skazitelnitsky

Date: Fri, 13 Aug 1999 19:30:35 EDT From: Raku2u@aol.com Subject: Re: An Interview With Raku

In a message dated 99-08-13 01:21:33 EDT, stormal@yahoo.com writes:

<< Part of this, someone else said (Skaz?), is because it is safe to post on the net: no cost, no fuss, no meeting people at cons, no getting newsprint all over your hands, etc. >

Yep, Karmen, that works for me too. I've never published in a fanzine and probably never will. I want to be anonymous, and publishing in a fanzine means at least the ed. of the zine would need to know where to send stuff, which is more public than I wanna get.

Besides, I get better distribution, editing, and feedback on the web than I think I'd ever get in a 'zine, and it's free for readers--they can read my stuff if they want to w/o paying.

Assuming, of course, they own a $1500 computer and have web access etc. ;)

A further issue not often brought up is that if you're interested in writing atypical stuff--oddball crossovers (like the Pokemon/Voyager one Sasscat and I are playing with on ASC right now), or Tu/P, or other such, I expect it's difficult to find a zine that would publish your stuff, and those few others who want to read it would have a hard time locating it. On the web, you take yourself to Deja.com, and after 20 minutes of annoying clicking and sorting, presto there you are. Are there a lot of Tu/P zines out there? Are there any? I doubt it...

Date: Fri, 13 Aug 1999 19:32:45 EDT From: Raku2u@aol.com Subject: Re: Net vs. print (Was re: An Interview With Raku)

Karmen wrote:

<< However, if someone *has* the GW letter and wants to post it... that's another matter entirely. >

Well, from their point of view it's the same diff. They sell zines on the logic that they have stuff you can't get otherwise. Someone puts it on the web, they're toast. Their sales drop. I'd think a letter or story from G'wolf would be a property worth having; I look forward to the point at which they'll let him post. I believe the K/S Press has a 12-mo exclusive or similar, after which you can do what you want.

-raku

Date: Fri, 13 Aug 1999 19:35:22 EDT From: Raku2u@aol.com Subject: Re: An Interview With Raku

In a message dated 99-08-13 11:56:54 EDT, you write:

<< The best artists can make more money selling prints. Consumers now can get stories in bulk on the net virtually for free. I'm sure there will always be artistic labors of love produced, but if the future of printzines rests on illustration, it's doomed in my opinion. >

Pretty interesting. I've only seen a handful of fan art, and it varied hugely in quality. Some was top-notch stuff--other stuff, well, gee. The item that amazed me the most was a wall hanging about twelve feet on a side, woven on a loom, of images from the Highlander TV show. The artist seemed to me nuts. It was beautiful--a wonderful piece of weaving as near as I could tell, the images were recognizable as cast members, and it must have taken hours. Who would put that kind of effort into a wall hanging?

--raku, belatedly realizing how many hours went into Learning Curve... <laughs nervously>

Date: Fri, 13 Aug 1999 16:49:06 -0700 (PDT) From: Karmen Ghia <stormal@yahoo.com> Subject: Re: Net vs. print (Was re: An Interview With Raku)

--- Raku2u@aol.com wrote: From: Raku2u@aol.com

Karmen wrote:

<< However, if someone *has* the GW letter and wants to post it... that's another matter entirely. >

>Well, from their point of view it's the same diff. They sell zines on the logic that they have stuff you can't get otherwise. Someone puts it on the web, they're toast. Their sales drop.

Okay, I dig. I'd feel the same way, vehemently. Good thing I stay on the web where it's safe.

>I'd think a letter or story from G'wolf would be a property worth having; I look forward to the point at which they'll let him post. I believe the K/S Press has a 12-mo exclusive or similar, after which you can do what you want.

Man, I can't even think ahead 12 weeks these days, let alone 12 months.

Karmen

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