AFZS-AV-CAV-T

6 September 1996

MEMORANDUM FOR RECORD

SUBJECT: Conscientious Objector Hearing with SPC John R. Goldthwaite (6 SEP 96)

1. On 6 September 1996, I conducted a Conscientious Objector Hearing with SPC John R. Goldthwaite. Those present at this hearing were myself and the claimant. SPC Goldthwaite waived his Rights as seen on DA Form 3881, and gave me testimony under affirmation. SPC Goldthwaite turned in an additional enclosure to his clams/beliefs which I have labeled Exhibit B. This hearing lasted from 0930 to 1200, and was conducted IAW AR 600-43. Listed below are the notes I took from the hearing:

Q. How old are you?
A. I am 35 years old today, I turn 36 tomorrow.

Q. How much time in service do you have? including Naval Reserve and Active Army time.
A. On October 25, 1996, I will have 12 years service for Pay, however, I only have 4 years towards retirement.

Q. By the definition of CO, how do you feel you fit? (Read SPC Goldthwaite the definition)
A. I believe I am a CO. While the definition is very narrow, I believe I fit in according to the definition under the Moral and Ethical side. As far as the claim goes, I am going through Military Channels as my first option. Whether or not the military chooses to classify me as a CO, it is not going to influence how I believe.

Q. Would you fight in any war in any form?
A. That depends on ones definition of war. John Locke defines war as "any two people in conflict or someone committing an act of aggression against one." I would defend myself if I had to. However I would not fight in a war between nations. If solders were to come on my property, I would defend myself.

Q. What exactly are your beliefs?
A. In a nutshell. . . I have a belief that pertains to a Law of Equal Behavior, a law in which everyone is equal and free. There would be no forced behavior of one man imposing his rules on another. A lot of laws made by all nations including this one, restricts people and creates an inequality which is contrary to what I see as moral law and equal freedom. Moral law in my mind is a state of how people should and ought to be, not how people are. The State should not impose laws that are direct violation of peoples ability to make a choice. I believe people should be able to do what they want as long [as] it does not hurt anyone else.

Q. When did these beliefs become fixed in your mind, and you realized that you were a CO?
A. Probably two to three months ago. It has been evolving over the past one and a half years. It began with me asking questions to myself about the moral philosophy that I grew up with. My job forced me to begin to examine the moral implications of what we were doing to others enforcing Drug and Immigration laws. When I talked to the Chaplain two to three months ago, I realized I needed to start living according to my beliefs.

Q. I have noticed that you were employed as a security guard on occasions in the past. Would this employment now violate your moral beliefs?
A. I would have no problem protecting someone's property if that were my job, and it were a private enterprise. If someone were to attack that property, I would defend it. In this case there would be a reason to defend the enterprise.

Q. At times, I perceive the Army as a large cooperation [corporation?], do you ever draw the same parallel?
A. I signed up for Military Service because I saw it as a Religious duty under the Mormon faith. What I find objectionable in the Army is that if [I had] joined a private company as a security guard, and I was just protecting the property of the company, that would be fine. If I realized, or was told to impose laws on another company, I would terminated my work with that organization.

Q. Do you believe in the Declaration of Independence?
A. It is in accordance with the law of Equal Freedom, though some things are inaccurate, Governments should be created to secure the freedom of individuals, but they are not.

Q. So you believe that all laws should be abolished.
A. No, I do not believe all laws should be abolished. If one man robs another that is wrong.

Q. Can you expound on those views?
A. I am an Anarchist, Anarchism means the absence of arbitrary rule. People can live together under the laws of equal freedom. Things that are now considered crimes would be abolished. Examples would be things like Prostitution, Drugs, and Gambling would be legal , and if people choose to do things that could potentially hurt themselves, so be it, as long as they don't hurt others. I think violence and gang wars are a result of these laws. When they stopped Prohibition the gangsters went away.

Q. At Goodfellow AFB you saw a video called Investigative Reports on the Drug War, What part did these tapes play in the conversion of your beliefs.
A. They were the major catalyst that started my in depth research. This film brought it all together in my mind that what I was doing was wrong. Before I went to Goodfellow, I had been purchasing books on civil liberties. This video made me realize that we were all wrong. I was so appalled by the video that I went to [my] commander to see if I [could] be released from duty. He sent me to my career counselor who mentioned CO, but said he would not consider me a CO at the time. But looking back, I feel that I maybe was a CO, but only in the early stages. I was determined now to come up with a resolution for the issue. I knew I was right about this, and I was certain I desagreed, but I wanted reasons why I felt this way to back up my claims. I began extensive research to find the answers. It was shocking for me to be raised one way, and all of a sudden my... moral and ethical beliefs change.

Q. After Goodfellow you went to Ft. Huachuca as part of AIT?
A. Yes, I went there. It was kind of a familiarization course. I continued my readings there, and did do some hiking. My beliefs continued to be formed.

Q. Have you had any major problems in the Army?
A. No, I knew what I was getting into. I knew that the Army was not a democracy. I have not been mistreated by anyone since I began service.

Q. At DLI, you failed Chinese and [chose] Spanish as your primary language. What happened?
A. I was very disappointed in myself. This may not have happened if I would have studied more. I had a girlfriend there, and we were going to get married. It didn't work out and now she is married to someone else. I was "upset" about failing and felt I could have passed if I would have studied harder. I was tested in Russian and Spanish (already proficient in both languages) and ended up choosing Spanish. If I had stayed in Chinese or went into Russian, these issues probably would have never surfaced.

Q. When you arrived at Ft. Drum, how did you feel about your job?
A. I really enjoyed flying, however, I was still disturbed about the mission. I went to the Quick Fix course in Feb 96. This course which was three weeks really upset me because most of it discussed the border mission. My MOS triggered me into being a CO. If I were to get reclassified into some other MOS, I would still be a CO, and would not participate. "I currently sweep and mop floors, and that is fine because it does nothing to improve the overall efficiency of the military."

Q. You were chosen to represent the Division at the Language Olympics. How did you feel about being chosen to go?
A. It was like any activity, I was happy to go. We got blown out of the water. I think I could have done better in Russian.

Q. Have you ever been approached by any type of group to join?
A. No, I have never been approached to join. I have known people that are part of a Militia in Arizona. Those people are "nuts."

Q. Do you have any friend that you would consider your "Closest Friend?"
A. No, I don't have any now. Most people who I share the same ideas with are unfortunately "Gay or Lesbian." More or less, I am a loner. I don't even have a good relationship wiht my family. I can talk with my father, however I am personally bothered by [their] morals.

Q. Are you looking for a place to belong?
A. No, most loners are looking for a place to belong, and I am not interested.

Q. After [you went] to Language Olympics, you went on leave, what did you do?
A. I went back to Arizona and went camping. It was then that I looked at how my family was living and that this was not the type of life style that I wanted to live. "I realized that I was not a Mormon, and I do not believe." I told my parents about what I was disturbed about, and my parent said, "that if the law of the land is wrong, then [G]od is punishing us." At this point, I realized that not only my political ideas had changed, but my religious ideas had changed too.

Q. Did you go camping with anyone in Arizona?
A. I went camping with a friend named Brad.

Q. Who is Brad?
A. He is a good friend of mine that I met at [the] University of Arizona. We talk a lot. He is a Libertarian, and we have very close to the same philosophy. He is in favor of legalization of most consensual crimes like myself. Brad was a Russian Language major at [the] University or Arizona.

Q. Is Brad in the Army?
A. Yes, he is a Russian linguist. I talked to Brad about my CO status. He sympathizes with me, but is not convinced. He doesn't want to be a CO.

Q. Why did you join the Army?
A. I felt it was a good career path for me, and [I] needed to get a career. I also felt it was my religious duty.

Q. You checked "No" to being a CO at the time you joined the Army?
A. Yes, at that time I had no objection to protecting the country. I since have realized that our political leaders have immoral laws. I have not trust in them, because I feel their motives are immoral and not ethical. I will not kill for something I do not believe in.

Q. So you do not want to belong to any Government/Religious organization.
A. No, I will never surrender my allegiance to an organization.

Q. How do you feel about your U.S. Citizenship.
A. I have thought about renouncing it and do not feel patriotic anymore. I love the land, commerce, but I think the people are disgusting. What I mean is the people that abuse the land.

Q. But I thought "If people are not hurting anyone else their behavior is acceptable?"
A. Yes, people can do whatever they want to "their land."

Q. But without laws/government how can people have [their] own land?
A. I am not opposed to laws based on Equal Freedom. If someone felt someone had violated laws of equal freedom, they could go to court and present their case to a jury. the jury would decide what is just. Our society is not like that. We are like Hitler's Germany, we feel that the society is more important than the individual.

Q. Is there anything you would like to add?
A. I can't do this job anymore, and I won't. I don't want to get out by failing a PT test. It is not honest. I have taken this issue through the Army and there are other routes I could and will pursue. The [b]ottom line is that I am not patriotic, not religious and I will not defend this nation. Our leaders are immoral.

Q. What are your plans if you get out of the Army?
A. I have no plans at this time. I could be... getting promoted to SGT with 12 year total time in service. But I currently have no idea what I will be doing, nor do I have a job at this time. I would like to go into studying Nature if possible. I know I do not want to work for the Government, it is immoral and I also believe that taxation is wrong.

2. POC for this interview is CPT Martinez at (extention withheld)

Robert A. Martinez
CPT, AV
Investigating Officer