Phil Bloom,

 

The matter at hand is simply YOUR LEARNED ROMAN CATHOLIC church RELIGIOUS SINFUL PRIDE COMBINED WITH YOUR OWN SPIRITUAL BLINDNESS, AND NOTHING ELSE.

 

I will address though your most obvious made-up standard reply to anyone and also to whomever “Ben is” since you stated “…Ben, please let me know and I will do my best to respond.” You did state “The Bible, after all, originally came from the Catholic Church.”, AGAIN, THAT IS YOUR LEARNED ROMAN CATHOLIC church RELIGIOUS SINFUL PRIDE COMBINED WITH YOUR OWN SPIRITUAL BLINDNESS, AND NOTHING ELSE.

THE TRUTH IS the Roman Catholic Church in 397 the Council of Carthage had the 27 books considered the canon. However these books were read and distributed as Scripture for over 300 years by individual true believers (Christians) and churches (assemblies) long before their/your church councils claimed to give us the Bible. The Synod of Antioch in 266 AD. had rejected Paul of Samosata’s teaching (a modalist) as foreign to the ecclesiastical canon. In the council of Nicea in 325 when Athanasius argued in a debate against Arius he used much of the New Testament. He quoted from almost every book. The council of Laodicea in 363 A.D. decreed that only canonized books of the Old and New Testament were to be read in the Church’s. NONE of the councils made any list of what is in or out (so to say), the reason being that the majority of the church had accepted and used these books for many years. Are we (true believers - Christians) to accept the premise that 300 years passed with confusion and we waited for the church to decide in 397 A.D. what was our Scripture. Generations would have come and gone NOT having the whole bible. The simple truth is that we can produce almost the entire bible we have today from the early church writings in the mid 100’s to 200’s.

In 397 the council of Carthage put their approval on the canon that was already read by and throughout the church. It then became a fixed canon for the western church as it was for the eastern.

The word canon means rule of faith, the standard in which we measure and evaluate something is true or right and from god. The word for canonicity comes from the Greek word Kanon which is found in Galatians 6:16 Peace and mercy to all who follow this rule. How did the church determine what was to be Scripture and what was to be rejected. AGAIN though you FALSELY state “The Bible, after all, originally came from the Catholic Church.” just as the Roman Catholic church states they gave us the Bible, so is this TRUTH?

First they determined was it authoritative - did it come as thus saith the Lord, did they recognize Gods voice in it. Did it have the life transforming power of God.

Was the author an apostle or was he connected to an apostle (Known as a apostolic legate) An example of this is Mark wrote under Peters authority and Luke wrote his Gospel and book of Acts under Paul’s authority. Was it accepted and received by the other apostles who were eye witnesses.

Was it accepted by the overall church. Did the people bear witness of it by the Holy Spirit and did it not conflict with the already revealed body of Scripture. The Church was able to reject false books and this would insure the right ones were accepted because it would delay their recognition. At that time and even hundreds of years after there were numerous false letters and forgeries circulating, they knew this by putting them alongside the apostles teachings already delivered. Did they have the content that was consistent with the already accepted writings.

Did the books have the quality and inspiration that was consistent with the written revealed Word of God. It was for this reason the Apocrypha and Pseudepigrapha were rejected by NOT meeting the criteria.

So the test was by the eye witnesses or by Scripture itself. In the same way today we  (true believers - Christians) would reject the book of Mormon, we don’t have to have a church council and have bishops test it, each of us can apply the Scriptural test as we are encouraged to do in 1 Thessalonians 5, “test all things”. So if these letters taught doctrine contrary to what was already delivered or contradict practices of true believers Christian living already given it was rejected. Also if they lacked the prophetic and had inaccuracies historically it was refused.

There was NO church council to decide what books were to be included in the canon. They were recognized by the consensus of the entire body of the church NOT by a council of bishops. The books were written under the inspiration of All Holy God, they were canonical the moment they were written. A council was NOT necessary to affirm what was already TRUE. NO book became canonical by the action of a church council in the same way the OT books were not decided upon by the Sanhedrin. What the council did was to determine which books did not meet the tests for canonicity. The New Testament started to penned down approximately 15-20 years after the ascension. Since many of the apostles were alive there was NO reason to write, they also thought Christ Jesus return was imminent so it was NOT necessary. When the persecution of Stephen occurred the church was scattered and persecuted it then became necessary to pen down the teachings.

There were NO books written from 30-45 A.D. because true believers - Christians had access to the apostles who were living eyewitnesses. So there was no immediate concern to write it down. Christ Jesus return was imminent. When the church had its first martyr Stephen, then they were persecuted and scattered. It was from this event that letters were copied and circulated so that the teachings would not be lost or changed. As the apostles went out they shared the writings and commanded them to be passed on to others. The apostles put their writings into circulation through the church. “I charge you by the Lord that this epistle be read to all the holy brethren.” (1 Corinthians 1:2 & Ephesians1:1) We have examples of letters to be read to all in Scripture 1 Thessalonians 5:27, “to be read to all the church’s” Colossians 4:16, “read to the church of Colosse and the Laodiceans” Galatians1:21, “to the church’s of Galatia.” Christ Jesus clearly tells John the apostle in Revelations 1:11saying, “I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last,” and, “What you see, write in a book and send it to the seven churches which are in Asia: to Ephesus, to Smyrna, to Pergamos, to Thyatira, to Sardis, to Philadelphia, and to Laodicea.”

All the New Testament books were written between 45-75 A.D excluding the apostle Johns writings which occurred in 80-95 A.D. There were schools of Scribes (scholia) that copied the Scripture by hearing, also lecture rooms were people would copy down what they heard. From the beginning the church copied and shared the original documents to circulate the apostles writings. To protect the writings from being lost they were copied for distribution. First were the Pauline epistles next were the 4 gospels in one work, then Acts 1 Peter, 1 John, Revelation all these were accepted in both the East and the West (these were called Homologumena= all books accepted by the entire church). Their was James and Jude, 2^nd and 3^rd John, 2^nd Peter, Hebrews which were disputed books because they were not familiar with them, these 6 books were accepted later (these are called Antilogumena= books accepted by some of the church). Their were also false books circulating by authors who claimed to be an apostle (as you so FALSELY claim) or penned an apostles name. They were considered false because it contradicted the writings previously delivered, Example: The 1^st miracle of Jesus was that he did miracles as a boy not change the water to wine (these were called Notha = writings claiming inspiration but were false). Some of these ended up being in the Koran. By the 2^nd century we find the expression the New Testament. If all the Gospels were the same it would be a clear case of collusion we would then have a question of their validity.

Many of the church (so-called) fathers (bishops) quote the New Testament such as Polycarp (69-155 A.D.) quoting much of the New Testament (Matthew, Acts, Hebrews, 1 Peter And 10 of Paul's letters) his letter to the Philippians. Justin Martyr (100-160 A.D.) quotes all 4 Gospels, Acts and the epistles of Paul and Revelation. Portions of the gospels were read every Sunday in church. Clement, of Alexandria (165-220 AD) names all the books of the New Testament except Philemon, James, 2 Peter and 3 John.  Irenaeus (135-210 A.D.) quotes from all the New Testament books except Philemon, Jude, James and 3 John. Origen 185-254 names all the books of both the Old and New Testaments. 160-240. In 300 A.D. Athanasius referred to all 27 books of the New Testament represented in the eastern church. He said “they were the springs of salvation do not add nor take away.”  Tertullian who was a contemporary of both Origen and Clement mentions all the New Testament books minus James, 2 Peter and 2 John. Eusebius gave explanations and quotations from all the canonical books. They had their authority from the primary authority found in the writings of the TRUE apostles which made up the bible.

We can produce almost all the New Testament from the church (so-called) fathers writings and quotations BEFORE the year 150 A.D. proving that there was NO church government to approve of what was in or out (again, so to say). The Scripture is God breathed, its origin is with All Holy God, it is NOT man given (2 Peter1:21). The churches commission is to protect and promote the word as she is the pillar and ground of truth. Christ Jesus clearly said he was the truth and His word was truth to abandon this source puts one outside being called the church.

Christ Jesus clearly said my sheep hear my voice, they will flee from the voice of stranger. John17:8, “I have given them your words you have given me.” John 8:47, “He who is of God hears God's words; therefore you do not hear, because you are not of God.” When Christ Jesus was questioned by Pilate he was asked what is truth. He said ‘everyone who hears my voice is of the truth.”

John 8:30-32 “ As He spoke these words, many believed in Him. Then Christ Jesus said to those Jews who believed Him, “If you abide in My word, you are My disciples indeed. “And you shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.” In John17:7, Christ Jesus said His word is truth” because it was spoken from truth incarnate.

John 14:24-26, “He who does not love Me does not keep My words; and the word which you hear is not Mine but the Father's who sent Me. “These things I have spoken to you while being present with you. “But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all things that I said to you.” The purpose of the Spirit is to bear witness to Christ Jesus and His words.

John 16:12-14 “I still have many things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now. “However, when He, the Spirit of truth, has come, He will guide you into all truth; for He will not speak on His own authority, but whatever He hears He will speak; and He will tell you things to come. “He will glorify Me, for He will take of what is Mine and declare it to you.” The spirit guides us and ONLY speaks what Christ Jesus says. He does NOT  teach new doctrine!

John 2:20-21 “But you have an anointing from the Holy One, and you know all things. I have not written to you because you do not know the truth, but because you know it, and that no lie is of the truth. The spirit is given to teach us and lead us to truth this is not found in any man today but the God/man who already came.

I John 3:2 “ Now he who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. And by this we know that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us.” There is no true believing Christian without the inner witness which bears witness to the written revealed Word of God as our guide. It is the Spirit that is the teaching authority of the church NOT the Pope or any anointed man. The spirit was sent into the world to convince of sin righteousness and judgment. He is another just like Christ Jesus.

The Holy Spirit wrote it all down so there would be no mistakes. The Holy Spirit is the source of Scripture and all true believers – Christians are given him to interpret what he wrote. What better guide and teacher can we have than the same one who inspired the apostles to write Scriptures.

 

 

 

Lastly you stated “I could refute his arguments point by point, but it would take more time that I have available.” AGAIN, THAT IS YOUR LEARNED ROMAN CATHOLIC church RELIGIOUS SINFUL PRIDE COMBINED WITH YOUR OWN SPIRITUAL BLINDNESS, AND NOTHING ELSE.